Do I Need Boundaries? Seeking to Please God by Learning to Say No with Jim Newheiser | SFT: Episode 11

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Justin Daugherty: You're listening to Scripture for Today, a podcast of Hope Counseling and Discipleship Center. I'm your host, Justin Daugherty, and today I have with me Jim Newheiser to discuss his new book, "Do I Need Boundaries? Seeking to Please God by Learning to Say No." Jim Newheiser is the Director of the Christian counseling program and professor of Christian counseling and pastoral theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. He is the executive director of the Institute of Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. He's a fellow of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and a council member of the Biblical Counseling Coalition. He is the author of several books, including "Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage", and the mini books, "How to Love Difficult Parents" and "Financial Crisis". Jim and his wife, Caroline, have three grown children. Welcome to the podcast, Jim!

Jim Newheiser: Thanks, Justin.

Justin Daugherty: So your new book, "Do I Need Boundaries? Seeking to Please God by Learning to Say No". is a really practical topic that addresses an area that I think most people could probably grow in, myself included. The idea of proper boundary setting in the Christian life. As it stands right now, the classic book on boundaries is by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. It's sold over four million copies. I guess I just ask, why did you feel the need to write another book for Christians on the topic of boundaries?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah, I'd say there would be two primary reasons. One would be that Cloud and Townsend identify a real problem with people being overwhelmed and overcommitted and people having expectations of them that they can't meet and trying to figure out how to handle them. So think they've identified a major issue for many people, which is why they've sold 4 million copies. On the other hand, I also think that there is a better way approach the topic biblically. so, as much as I appreciate, I think they're brothers, I appreciate they use a lot of scripture, but I think their book focuses more on the horizontal aspect of person-to-person relationship. And I think the key to having proper limits in relationships would be much more vertical in terms of seeking to please God as the primary focus rather than seeking to please people. or even seeking to please oneself.

Justin Daugherty: So there's a, there's a different goal, it seems like from your book, as I read, from that of a more of a pop psychological level of boundary setting, which would be to conserve yourself or to look out for your own best interests. And from, from your book's standpoint, seems like it's more to please the Lord. And that's the underlying motivation for, boundary setting.

Jim Newheiser: I think the subtitle of the Cloud Townsend book is like, "take control of your life" or something. My perspective would be set limits according to the word of God so you can please God. I think, again, the summary I mentioned earlier where I think a lot of the reason why people get taken advantage of is they're more concerned about pleasing people than pleasing God.

Justin Daugherty: It's a really helpful distinction and I think it's very clear in the book. So talking about boundaries, what do you think are just some non-negotiable areas of life that you think people should have clear boundaries set in place for?

Jim Newheiser: Everything. I mean, the primary thing you think of is in terms of just your time. You have limited time and limited money. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, 9 that our aim is whether absent or present, whether alive or dead or alive, our aim is to be pleasing to him. And so we want to spend our time in a way that pleases God. That means our devotional life, means our family life, it means our vocation, it means our recreation, means our friendships, church relationships. All these different areas need to be managed, not through the tyranny of the urgent or pressure from other people, but to manage our time in such a way that when you look back upon a week or a month, you have a sense that as best I can tell, I've managed my time in a way that fits what I believe is pleasing to God in light of my understanding of his calling on my life in particular and on what he says in his word in general.

I mean, boundaries with money as well, to some extent, is that I want to use the resources I have in a way of good stewardship that pleases him. And we can be subject to all kinds of pressures, either selfish or people pressures from outside in both those areas.

Justin Daugherty: So there's clear expectations within the Christian life, right? We're not just going through the Christian life willy-nilly and even answering every single pressure that comes our way, but we were going through it strategically with the goal to be pleasing to the Lord. And sometimes that means saying no to certain things, right?

Jim Newheiser: Right. I mean, just to give you an example that pastoral ministry is an area where you don't have built-in boundaries on your time and you don't have like eight to five like you're working for Amazon or the post office or something. And the Bible says, 1 Corinthians 7, that the married man has to be concerned about pleasing his wife. I have responsibilities there. And for many people in pastoral ministry, the overwhelming pressure, like you never feel like you've done enough. You never feel like you're done even in terms of a good thing like ministry can lead to the neglect of family. And the Bible says the reality of being married and having children is that becomes a priority too. I think people who have lives that don't have built in structure, especially, think doctors, entrepreneurs, business owners, where you're never really off completely. You have to work hard at planning time for the other things that are important that may not be as urgent sometimes.

Justin Daugherty: Can you talk about the relationship between heart motivations and desires in boundary setting?

Jim Newheiser: Yeah. Cloud and Townsend in their book begin with a lady named Sherry, and she's overwhelmed by demands from bosses, coworkers, family members, church people, friends, other family. She's overwhelmed. one thing I say in my book is a biblical counselor would look at someone whose life is like that of Sherry and say, yes, she does need help. But we would also go back to the heart. Why is it that she's doing other people's work? and not able to go home at night and why is it that she can't say no to the demands of friends or other family members or church people? Proverbs 29, 25 says, fear of man brings a snare and the one who trusts God is exalted. think a lot of times people can give in to unwise use of time or give into pressure because they don't want people mad at them.

There can be lots of motivations. One would just be, I'm afraid they'll be upset with me. Or maybe you want to be that person everybody can rely upon and you never let everybody down or never let anybody down. And so you give in, even though you've got your family waiting at home for you when you've you're staying late unnecessarily. So I think rather than just trying to set schedules more wisely, think getting down to why does someone who is overwhelmed give into these pressures as opposed to stepping back and saying in light of scriptural teaching in light of my understanding of my priorities in life, setting limits more intentionally as you said, Justin.

Justin Daugherty: So we can look at the underlying heart motivations, which scripture gives us a very, a very clear picture of as to why we do what we do out of the overflow of our heart. I want to get into some of the practical topics here. In chapter six, you talk about in-laws who act like outlaws. What are some principles for boundary setting with in-laws? I know you've written about this before. What are some of those practical boundary setting principles for in-laws and how is this different from canceling our in-laws, which you also talked

Jim Newheiser: Right. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up because it just seems like consultation or counseling from people who are having these difficulties, even over the last few days when I've been at a conference. And this has happened before cancel culture became a big deal. know, Jesus warned in Luke 12, there'd be conflict in family, then even mentions in-laws, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law. And these can be very pressurized relationships things can go both ways. And I've seen, I guess to be practical where you, the most common thing I think I've run across is the mother-in-law is critical of the daughter-in-law and critical of how she raises the kids or how she keeps the house or how she cooks. And she's upset because her husband isn't defending her against that criticism. And the husband is afraid to displease his mother. a point, I mean, and he can say, well, look, just turn the other cheek to his wife, but she's also the position that you leave father and mother and you're married to me and so please protect me. And that's where even a couple could work through a situation where it may reach a point where the husband has a responsibility for the sake of his marriage to humbly, lovingly approach his mom and express these concerns.

It could get much worse where a family goes to see the grandparents and if the father-in-law, the grandfather is drunk and belligerent and they may need to get back in the car and to go home as one family had to do in a situation like that arose. But that doesn't mean you give up on the relationship. Romans 12, 18 says, as far as it's possible for you to be at peace with all men. So there could be times when you limit a relationship as the Bible says for safety. And there can even be if there's been abuse or something really awful happened. But there can be times when you might have to back off a bit from a relationship, but the cancel culture is much more self-oriented in terms of, don't like your politics or I don't like your theology. And if you don't accept my pronouns, then I won't talk to you anymore. And I'm seeing a lot of, and again, both sides, I've seen young adults canceled by their parents because they choose to go to a different kind of church. I've seen parents canceled by young adults for all these different reasons. I think we want to pursue peace and relationship, but I also acknowledge there can be situations that are so bad. It's appropriate in order to care for your family and to please the Lord to set some limits. And it varies a lot from situation to situation.

Justin Daugherty: Do you think, and I don't know if you can really answer this, and I'm sure there's more to it than just this, but do you think the current boundaries book and secular therapy have kind of played into that cancel culture of like, hey, if they aren't fulfilling your happiness, then cut them off. Or if they're not, you know, fulfilling your needs, then get them out of your life. Like, do you think those types of things, like that book or secular therapy, are playing into us canceling family members like that when in reality maybe we should just be setting proper biblical boundaries?

Jim Newheiser: Right. Well, mean, as you would know from reading my book, Justin, I'm not a fan of the Cloud Townsend book. And I think that someone reading that book could come to those conclusions. I would say that they probably would not intend us to go as far as cancel culture does with some of these situations. mean, they certainly talk about standing up for yourself in relationships. And I think they're leaving out some important biblical God centered considerations. Cancel culture, think, goes much further in terms of you shun someone completely because they didn't, know, and again, whole idea of your speech is violent to me because you did this. Another thing that's come out actually similar, Big L Schreier in her book, Bad Therapy, talks about how, and this is a secular author recognizing you have a whole generation, Gen Zs and maybe some who are a little older who are being therapeutically counseled and say that all their problems are the fault of their parents and there's this victim culture that's comprehensive. So think all that can fit in. I don't think from reading Cloud and Townsend, they would approve of all of that, but I think it's moving in that direction and it could lead to unnecessarily destroying relationships.

Justin Daugherty: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Maybe unintended consequences, but that mixed with a bunch of other things happening in the culture and expressive individualism and all of those types of things.

Jim Newheiser: Maybe it could lead down that route of cancel culture mentality, again, I'm going to take care of my own life and I'm going to stay away from people and of course, they don't use the word toxic, I don't think, but that's what's happening. so people are toxic to me. And I think many people who have never read the Cloud and Townsend books still have been influenced by the thinking in it as it's permeating even a lot of Christian culture. And that could go along with the cancel culture in terms of being around you is upsetting to me, therefore you're toxic to me, therefore I'm going to have nothing to do with you.

And even last night, no, two nights ago, I was with a couple and they were in tears because their daughter-in-law has completely cut them off from their son and their grandchildren because some offense she's taken. I'm not hearing her side, but I've just heard of nothing that would warrant that. But that is a mentality now that the Boundaries book is certainly giving a philosophy of relationship that could lead to those tragic relationship breaks.

Justin Daugherty: In chapter nine, you talk about financial boundaries with parents, friends, and those even asking for a handout. You even talk about married couples potentially needing to set financial boundaries with inheritances that they have received. Could you talk a little bit more about financial boundaries, whether it be inheritances other boundaries with parents or friends?

Jim Newheiser: Yes. I mean, this is back to stewardship is that we want to please God and how we use our resources. And biblically, there's a place for being generous with those who have real need. And first Timothy five says, if you have a widow, it's first her family, not the church who should be taking care of her. And yet we as the church should be generous and friendships. And so I think it's good to help people, but Paul said, if you want to call it a boundary in 2 Thessalonians 3, where he said, if someone is not willing to work, neither shall he eat. And so there'll be times in life when family members put relational pressure on to get you to help them in a way that would not be good stewardship of the resources God has given you. But if you were a good son or a good friend or a good brother, you would co-sign this or you would lend me the money or give me the money. And in some cases, it's just, it's an unwise choice given that God has given you these resources to capitulate to that pressure, which gets back to the issue of not being, not to be selfish and say, I'm just going to please myself. It's my money. But it's also not to give into the pressure of pleasing people, helping, or if using the resources the Lord has entrusted to you unwisely would take place because you're just trying to keep these people happy.

Justin Daugherty: To end, you have any other practical biblical principles that you would like to share on setting boundaries?

Jim Newheiser: I mean, word boundaries is actually usually used in the Bible of like borders between countries. So it's kind of a metaphor. And I appreciate that Ed Welsh, when he wrote a critique of the boundaries book said they're probably more biblical metaphors if you're trying to use a metaphor for all of life. And this is what happens a lot with pop psychology where, you know, could be love languages or boundaries or different paradigms that people use that often are addressing a real problem, have some measure of wisdom to it, but it's lacking. So I think really the focus is that we approach every choice we're making, how can I best please God? And sometimes that means putting up with time consuming needy people and that's just the right thing to do. Romans 15 says that we were strong, should not despise those who are weak.

But sometimes it would be that I mean, just as my own life is that I people who want me to counsel them. And if I were to answer all of that positively, then I would not be spending enough time with my wife or the students whom employed to teach. And so we have to just step back and say, in light of the word of God, but then even my particular calling in life at this time in my life, married or single, what is my vocation?

Even when we're empty nesters, I have a different set of priorities than I did when I had little kids at home. But in all of these things is that grid through which the choices are made when people expect something of us is as best I can tell, and I'm not going to get new revelation from heaven, but as best I can tell, how can I glorify God in this situation? How can I please God in this situation? And to be careful not to give into pressure that might lead to unwise stewardship of my resources.

Justin Daugherty: Jim's new book, "Do I Need Boundaries? Seeking to Please God by Learning to Say No" is out now. You can go and grab a copy on Amazon. Jim, it would be amazing to see if this book really permeated the church and influenced the church to set boundaries for the glory of God and not just to preserve and please self. So I'm excited to see what this book will do in the Christian church. Thanks for joining us on Scripture for Today.

Jim Newheiser: Thank you. I think New Growth Press and I would both be happy if we sold 1 % of what Cloud and Townsend have sold, but I hope that the Lord will use it and would have some good influence.

Justin Daugherty: Amen.