Singing As A Means of Mind Renewal with Bob Kauflin | SFT: Episode 8

Justin Daugherty: You're listening to Scripture for Today, a podcast of Hope Counseling and Discipleship Center. I'm your host, Justin Daugherty, and today I have the pleasure of interviewing Bob Kauflin on the topic "Singing as a Means of Mind Renewal." Bob Kauflin currently serves as the director of Sovereign Grace Music. He's written two books, Worship Matters and True Worshipers. Through conferences, seminars, and his blog Worship Matters, he seeks to equip pastors, musicians, and songwriters in theology and the practice of congregational worship.

He also oversees the production of Sovereign Grace music albums. He currently has the joy of being the pastor at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville. Bob and his wife, Julie got married in 1976. They are blessed with six children and an ever-growing number of grandchildren. Bob, it's a pleasure to have you join me on the podcast.

Bob Kauflin: Thanks for having me, Justin. And I'm just thrilled that the Lord sovereignly ordained that we connect.

Justin Daugherty: Absolutely. You and I crossed paths in an airport. And I remember you told me about the number of grandchildren that you have. And I was like, wow, that's an amazing amount of grandchildren! Hey, I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic of singing as a means of mind renewal. Before we jump into that, I'm just totally curious. What are some of your favorite Sovereign Grace songs? And I know that's probably like asking you, who's your favorite child.

Bob Kauflin: Yeah, well, I can answer that one easy. No, I can't. I'm sorry. Just kidding. Just kidding. I always tell people, Before the Throne of God Above is my favorite Sovereign Grace song. Vicki Cook wrote the melody and Cher DeLis Bancroft wrote the words in the 1800s. It's just a fountain of truth that reminds us how we're justified before God. That we're in Christ, that we are resurrected with Him, and that while in heaven He stands, no tongue can bid us thence depart from the presence of God. And the melody is just incredibly beautiful. Ones I don't know if are as well known would be like, O Lord, My Rock and My Redeemer, by Nathan Stiff, just a beautiful three verse hymn that reminds us again of who Jesus is for us. Of course, Jesus, Thank You, All I Have is Christ. They're two of my favorites. They've been around a long time. Jesus, There's No One Like You. It's a simpler song, which we don't always write simple songs. That's all I have, all I want, all I need is you, is how the bridge goes. All Glory Be Forever is a song that I don't think many people know, it was on the Grace Has Come album. My son wrote it, and it's just a wonderful three verse song with a chorus that talks about the story of the Gospel and how God receives all the glory for it. We Receive is a new communion song we've written that I just love, love, love. So those are some of the ones that I really like. I mean, I like a lot of them.

Justin Daugherty: Me too. One of them recently that I've kind of been meditating on is The Steadfast Love of Christ and that ending there where you, you talk about you believing in the justice of God the Son, all of that is so great. So we're talking about that topic of meditation, mind renewal in the Scripture. A lot of people today will turn to secular music for comfort. And they end up meditating on whatever lyrics they're hearing ultimately. But Scripture calls us to meditate on God's Word and to sing about His character and promises. How does music shape our minds in general? And how does singing worship songs serve as a kind of biblical meditation that renews our mind?

Bob Kauflin: Well I think music affects us in two ways. You don't always have to listen to the words when you listen to music. And I think one thing music can do is train us to just be affected emotionally without thinking about the words. So it's not a good thing because no matter what the songs are saying, you're moved. It's because music is the emotional language. And in one sense, it can teach you not to really pay attention to what's being said, which is not a good thing. But that's why a lot of us turn to music as a means of comfort or encouragement or peace, because music just does that. Now, when we do listen to the words, music amplifies the impact of the truth. God gave us music or singing to help us feel what we're singing, the words that we're singing. So if it's a secular song that's talking about immorality or just living for the world, living your best life now or whatever, that's a bad thing because music helps reinforce those wrong thoughts, those false thoughts. But if it's well-written, theologically driven, Christ-exalting truth, that the songs are singing, that the words or lyrics are portrayed, well then music becomes a way of amplifying the impact of those truths so that we do indeed feel the truth. And we tend to be affected by, drawn by the things that we feel. Whether or not we're thinking about why we feel that way, we tend to go after the things that affect us most deeply. So God gave us singing so that those truths which are found in His Word can affect us even more deeply, or I might say in a different way. Because God doesn't need music for the Word to have its impact on us, but He can use music to deepen its impact.

Justin Daugherty: Yeah, that's so good. And I think that this fits perfectly with counseling, which people don't normally put those two things together at the outset, but in the process of counseling, singing can actually be great for mind renewal. When people think about counseling, like I said, they normally think about a one-on-one interaction. mean, rarely do people think about counseling in the context of a corporate gathering, you know, for obvious reasons like confidentiality and things like that. But how do you think singing corporately actually aids in the counseling process?

Bob Kauflin: Oh my, we can spend the whole time on this! Colossians 3.16 says, "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." Then what does it say? "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom." How do you do that? "Singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God." Ephesians 5 says, "we're addressing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." God intends the singing we do as a congregation to be a means of teaching and admonishing each other. And so often I think of people that I've counseled or been counseling or who need counseling. And I think, you know what? The counsel you need, you're hearing right here as we sing. The people around you are telling you how you're to deal with that feeling of hopelessness or anxiety. discouragement or despair. I mean think of you know the verse in It Is Well it says, "My sin, the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin not in part but the whole has been nailed to the cross and I bear it no more." Well, when someone is dealing with condemnation, that's what they need to hear. Or when they're dealing with the power of sins hold on us. "Now, Lord, I would be yours alone and live so all might see. The strength to follow your commands could never come from me. Father, use my ransomed life in any way you choose and let my song always be forever be. My only boast is you."

We're saying there that we do not have the power within ourselves to live up to God's commands, to follow His commands. It has to be the fact that His grace is working through us. How did that grace come to us? We were ransomed through the blood of Christ. So we need to sing songs with specific details about what God has done to rescue us, to transform our lives, and then all the promises he's made regarding what he's done and how that works itself out in our lives. you whatever it is we might be dealing with, anxiety, despair, condemnation, insecurity, does God love me? Well, yes, "my name is graven on his hands. My name is written on his heart. I know that while in heaven he stands, no tongue can bid me thence depart." That's counseling! And that's what congregational singing does.

Justin Daugherty: So counseling is really a theological issue with all sorts of theological problems, and singing is incorporated into that. And so that's why I think that counseling should be in the context of the local church. If you're doing counseling apart from the local church, well, that can certainly be helpful. But if it's if it's under the the leadership of the local church, then you have that natural context where you're singing together and it's kind of aiding in the counseling process.

Bob Kauflin: Yeah, I would say that certainly God uses means outside the local church to transform people's minds and hearts. But he has given the church as a primary means. And I would say the supervisory means of seeing our lives change. And that's why, as you're saying, congregational singing can be one of those opportunities. where we allow God through His Spirit on the basis of the Gospel, what Christ has done, to actually perform life-transforming work in our souls.

Justin Daugherty: So if I as a counselor were to assign worship music as a part of homework for a counselee, how would you recommend that I go about doing that? Like from a worship leader's perspective, what specifics do you think that I should include if I were to assign worship music?

Bob Kauflin: I think the first thing I'd say is make sure the person reads the lyrics before they listen to it. Because a lot of times we can listen to a song and be caught up in the music. Caught up in the way it's performed, the sound of the voice, certain instrumental fills, the harmonies, which is great. But unless we understand that all that music is meant to support those truths, we might miss them entirely.

Even as I'm training leaders, I will say, before you examine a song or consider a song to sing with your congregation, read the lyrics. Understand what's really there. And then I'd say, as you listen to the song, or as you play the song, listen to it first. Let the Lord speak to you through it. Don't just dive right in. Let him speak to you. Hear the Lord speaking to you through the words of the song.

And then the third thing I would say is to sing along with it because something happens in our hearts when we engage our breathing, we engage our bodies, we engage our lungs, our diaphragm, we engage our hands if we lift them, we engage our minds all together. Psalm 71, it's, I can't remember, we need the last verse of the Psalm, says,"My lips will shout for joy when I sing praises to you. My soul also which you have redeemed." So my lips are singing praises to you, but my soul also is doing it, it's doing it together. So I would encourage the counselor, to tell the counselee, sing these songs. Let those words come through you, through your mouth, through your lips, through your lungs, so that you might be more affected by what you're singing.

And of course, you know, it's not just any worship song. It's songs that detail, that enable the word of Christ to dwell on us richly, which is the gospel. Christ's perfect life, His incarnate birth, His perfect life, His substitutionary death in my place, His triumphant resurrection, the fact that He's ascended to the Father's right hand and is interceding for me. I have a great high priest in heaven above who ever lives and pleads for me. That's not just words! It's not just a pretty song, it's a truth. It's a reality that should give me strength and encouragement for whatever I'm going through. So those are some of the things that I would say.

Justin Daugherty: Singing out loud. not just hearing, but singing it out loud. That's so good. Whenever you think about marriage and family counseling, I think one helpful bit of homework that the counselor can assign is family worship, which is a bit of a lost art today. Where, families pray, they open up the Scripture, they read, they sing together. I know that you could probably give dozens of reasons here, but how do you think singing as a family can help in marital and family counseling?

Bob Kauflin: Man. Well, the first thing is that it sets our priorities in unison. It's saying to our family, this is what we all believe. This is what we all stake our lives on. This is what we're gathered under. So it's not a matter of mom and dad being the ones in charge or the kids. It's all of us. It's family worship. Who are we worshiping? The triune God. And doing that together, God uses that to mold us, to shape us, to humble us, to encourage us, to knit us together, to help us see our problems in light of who He is and what He's done for us in Christ. So as you know, I mean, if you're doing family counseling, there are a lot of ways that can go wrong. The family can go wrong. We all imagine the perfect family where everybody loves each other. Mom and dad just are always gentle and calm and clear. And the kids are always just responsive and so grateful and loving. And it just doesn't stay like that. Sin enters, the world enters, Satan enters, and it's just a lot of problems. Well, family worship, which I think I believe more strongly in, now that our kids have all been raised and they have their own kids of their own. I wish I had been more consistent in it. We were not very consistent and a lot of our family worship times, this might encourage some listeners, were just me correcting the kids for not paying attention or not reading the Bible clearly. Family worship should be engaging, it should be fun. It's not a test of, know, fatherhood to have all their kids listening perfectly. and you're right with them.

It's a process. It's your job to make it fun. It's your job to make it engaging. So as you do that, so much gets done in the family. And you don't put all your eggs in the basket of once a week, we're going to make it work, we're going to make it count. Because then you put everybody under pressure. Family worship is a gift. It's a gift from the risen Christ that we get to enjoy what he's done with our parents, with our children. And it's a beautiful thing.

Justin Daugherty: I think it's one of the blessings that you have to do first in order to see all of the benefits that come after the fact. So last question: For you personally, how has singing renewed your mind and conformed you into the image of Christ?

Bob Kauflin: Oh my. Well, so many times in a Sunday gathering, I realize my affections are out of order. Either I'm numb or I'm distracted, or more likely, I am aiming at something that's idolatrous. I'm aiming at my own comfort. I'm aiming at my recognition, at being applauded, being adored. And worship songs remind me of what's true. So a song like we wrote for the last album, Christ Our Wisdom, where it just says, the last line is, "You are God, and I am not."

That's a prayer that I've just prayed hundreds of times. Remind me, Lord, you are God and I am not. I remember the first time we sang, Yet Not I, But Through Christ in Me by City Alight. That song just puts everything in perspective. And no matter what I think I need to achieve, it's Christ's work in me. He will carry me to the end. He will not leave me stranded. And my soul is renewed. So often, Justin, it's just recognizing I was a condemned sinner before God. And the Son of God came and lived 33 years for me so that he could bear my sins in his perfect body on the cross so that I could be forgiven, justified, sanctified, sustained. And one day glorified in His presence, all because of what he's done. And it just puts everything in perspective. You know, it makes Matthew 11:20-30 just make sense. "Come to me all you who labor and are heavy laden, I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, my burden is light." Songs help me remember that and why it's true.

Justin Daugherty: Bob, thank you so much for joining us on Scripture for Today.

Bob Kauflin: My joy. Thanks for asking me.